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Red-Doggy
09-29-2006, 03:37 AM
Hi, the clutch pulls on my '77 shovel 4 speed pretty bad when the bike is cold. It wants to stall when I'm at a stop. Once I ride for a while and its hot, then it shifts & runs nice and smooth. I'm using 85W-140 gear oil in the tranny. should I switch to a lighter oil, or is this just the way shovels are? Thanks

58PanMan
09-29-2006, 03:47 AM
Any oil getting on your plates from a tranny leak?
Everything adjusted right?

I use 90W gear lube and a dry belted primary on my '67
and been riding it for over 35 years with no problems.
I do use Barnett clutch plates which can be run wet or dry
and change the springs every few years.

Lots of shovel drivers here to help.

wreckerman
09-29-2006, 11:53 AM
is it a new clutch ? and is it a barnet ? yes to eather question means you have to put the front tire aganst a wall and slip the hell out of the clutch kind of break them in , if that is not the case then eather a warped steel plate or liteing up on the clutch spings a turn or so

Stoney
09-29-2006, 12:20 PM
I thought gear oil in 4 speeds was a no no.My 67 shop manual says to use motor oil in the tranny. B)

Nitram_b4
02-24-2007, 11:45 AM
never ran anything but motor oil in my old bikes tranny

junior
02-24-2007, 12:14 PM
if you do all the above and it stills drags, look at a "clutch tamer" kit. they are available from several sources. they include loger hub rollers that keep everything aligned and prevent dragging....

j

Relic
02-24-2007, 04:56 PM
Check to see if the clutch hub moves any when you engage the clutch. If so, get back with us.

skeezix
03-11-2007, 08:39 AM
I have a '73 shovel, I use wet/dry barnett clutch plates. My bike used to grab really bad when it was cold then tame out when it was hot. I upped the amount of oil in my primary and it went away with no digns of slipping. Like Wide once said: "oil in your primary can be your best friend"

Skeez

Red-Doggy
03-13-2007, 03:58 AM
So Skeez, what oil is it you use, heavy gear oil or motor oil?

skeezix
03-13-2007, 06:29 PM
I just use 50 or 60 engine oil, same as goes in my motor. Be sure to have the wet/dry plates though.

Skeez

Red-Doggy
03-16-2007, 08:46 PM
Sorry to keep this topic going so long, but I'm still not understanding it. A local guy tells me that there should be oil in 3 places: motor oil in the crank case, heavy gear oil in the tranny, and light oil in the primary. He said that if you put motor oil in the primary it would cause what I'm seeing, that it's too heavy until it gets hot and lightens up. He said that motor oil could also be leaking into the primary to cause this. I've never put any oil into the primary. I only see a little bit of oil in there and it looks black, like old motor oil. This is a '77 4 speed shovel. Thanks

skeezix
03-17-2007, 07:48 PM
Ya, he is correct bro, you need oil in the primary. BUT, it depends on the type of clutch plates you have. I used to have a dry clutch system and I had to watch the amount of oil I put in there. If the oil flung up on the plates she would slip till it was dried out. I changed to wet/dry plates and have never had a problem.

Also, have you closed your primary oil system off from the engine oil system ??

Skeez

JeffW
03-18-2007, 08:27 AM
Once had similar situation, Metal plates were overheated and blue, My own bonehead move (burnout king!!!), Bought new ones and hit the fiber discs with light grit sandpaper to roughen up and she worked aok, I also run a little oil in the side, keeps everything running smooth and slick, wet/dry plates

Jeff

Nitram_b4
03-18-2007, 11:12 AM
Not to be a pain in the ass but you ever hear of RTFM....a manual from clymer cost 35.00
it will be the best investment of 35.00 you will ever spend. I know this forum is for people to ask tech questions but you should make an effort to understand the basics if you intend to do your own maintaince or risk damage to your machine or even worse put yourself in a dangerous position. get a manual and study it to get an understanding of what you are trying to correct :nordic_motor:

skeezix
03-19-2007, 04:13 AM
Most manuals for the old shovels don't touch the issue of disconnecting the primary from the rest of the oil system. I don't mind people asking questions either.

Skeez

skeezix
03-19-2007, 04:15 AM
I should add........The manual is an awesome idea though, I would suggest buying a genuine H-D manual. The other companies just don't seem to cut it.

Skeez

Nitram_b4
03-19-2007, 05:55 AM
yup..all I was saying...was not trying to slam anybody......a manual is your best friend

skeezix
03-19-2007, 06:02 AM
Don't forget the "Parts Manual" either. My shop loves it when I can give them an exact part # , no guessing ....

Skeez

Red-Doggy
03-20-2007, 02:24 AM
I have the Clymer manual, have read it over and over, and it doesn't say much on this topic. It does say that the capacity of the primary is 6 oz of primary oil, but doesn't say what that is.

Bigshovel
03-20-2007, 07:17 AM
If your primary system is stock, the engine oil is circulated through the primary chain case via a line off the pump. There will be a return from the chain case to the pump as well. It's an automatic oiler and can be adjusted with a screw on the pump housing. Ideally you only want a few drops at a time dripping onto the chain while its running, the excess is scavenged back from the chain case so there is no 'level' to fill it to and you won't find one printed anywhere either. The only exception is if has been sealed off then it must be vented and the oil level should only be high enough to skim the bottom of the primary chain with the bike level. I highly recommend the Barnett wet dry clutches and inspection of the spring loaded balls on the steel discs for serviceability. Get the rear end oil out of your tranny and put some 60wt in it, that will keep you from blowing a seal and make sure the tranny vent screw isn't plugged while you are at it. The next time you have a bonfire throw the Clymer in it. Spend the 50 bucks and have Kagan get you a factory service manual. Shovels are different animals and must be treated accordingly so be careful of local shops giving out advise unless you see some old iron out front. Any more questions we are here. :)

JeffW
03-20-2007, 08:39 AM
Just for your own info, I myself have run mine with the primary sealed off on each scooter to date, makes for a cleaner looking machine I think, and yea I run wet/dry discs with just enough oil in there to get things lubed, as for the metal plates with the balls and hasps I threw those out years ago and run straight non hinged plates, never had a problem to date.

As mentioned, MAKE sure that tranny vent is open, I had problems years ago and found out that it was there...........................

WildMan

skeezix
03-22-2007, 05:57 PM
Get the rear end oil out of your tranny and put some 60wt in it, that will keep you from blowing a seal and make sure the tranny vent screw isn't plugged while you are at it.

You run 60wt in your tranny bro ? I was always told to run bel-ray tranny oil, 90/140 or whatever it is.

I will try 60 for a change ...

Skeez

JeffW
03-23-2007, 06:31 AM
Misinformation on my part dude, I run Golden Spectro gear lube, about 17 dineros for a quart, good shit, I just rebuilt the tranny on this one and am running it in it too, I've always had faith in it, Go to your good shop not the idiots (you know who) and they'll have it..

WildMan

thorsblood
03-23-2007, 09:56 AM
Maybe this will help you if you want to disconnect your primary. I don't think it matters much what oil you run in there. It was regular engine oil that was being pumped through there right from the factory. I think you problem is in your clutch adjustments. With a manual you can go through and set it perfect.


http://www.hawgeye.com/tech/images/shoveloil.pdf

Red-Doggy
03-27-2007, 01:02 AM
The shop that put in the clutch 3 years ago says it's a wet clutch. But there was only a small amount of sludgy oil in the chain case. So I said w.t.f., and dumped in 2 qts of 5W-30 and went for a ride. It was nice and smooth from the start, no grabbing like before. Then I noticed a leak in the seal between the inner primary case and the engine case. This is in the upper, front rounded area. Now I see that there is a round flange on the engine case that's broken. The big round opening in the front of the inner primary case is supposed to fit around that. But I can see that big chrome piece moving a tiny bit when the engine is running. Now I know where my primary oil went. Engine must have been wrecked before. Looks bad.

Bigshovel
03-27-2007, 04:13 AM
A cracked or broken flange there is not uncommon and is more often than not caused by improper engine /tranny alignment. So long as the engine case isn't broken you can either tear down and have it welded or switch to a belt drive with dry clutches. Primo has a nice 1& 1/2 " unit that bolts right on for a decent price. You will have to run the vented covers on the primary or go open with a guard and an engine to tranny support plate. It will at least get you through the next riding season. :)

Heretic
03-27-2007, 05:19 AM
A cracked or broken flange there is not uncommon and is more often than not caused by improper engine /tranny alignment. So long as the engine case isn't broken you can either tear down and have it welded or switch to a belt drive with dry clutches. Primo has a nice 1& 1/2 " unit that bolts right on for a decent price. You will have to run the vented covers on the primary or go open with a guard and an engine to tranny support plate. It will at least get you through the next riding season. :)

I did this on one of my old ones and loved it. Instead of the vented outer primary, I milled the vents into the inner primary, and left the outer one stock. Then spaced the inspection cover out 1/4 inch from the outer primary. Every three years I replace that primary belt (It is on it's third one now)

Bigshovel
03-27-2007, 06:37 PM
Yea, I spaced the whole outer primary on an old pan with some 1/4 inch spacers and it worked like a charm.

Heretic
03-27-2007, 06:43 PM
mine is on an old pan, but spacing the whole outer primary out was not an option because I have the cheat start on it, and I wanted it to look stock at a casual glance

Later my dad and I came up with the idea of making our own bearing retainer for the transmission, that held a toyota pickup starter. It has the same teeth as a harley, and you can run an open belt on a shovel or pan 4spd with an electric start. The toyota starter has more grunt than the Harley high torque one, and only cost $86.
If you want to run a tin primary, just notch out the inner tin, and most people never realize you have a starter