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Sleeps_In_Trees
04-14-2007, 07:40 PM
ThunderMax w/Autotune, Daytona Twin Tech TCFI II, or Terrys Components Terminal Velocity II; anyone have experience w/these? I'm researching em & any info will be appreciated.

VicW.

arthureld
04-14-2007, 08:15 PM
There's some info here if you want to search it out.
Closed loop is the way of the future, but I doubt you'll get much gain over the setup you already have if you're talking about the bike in your sig.
Too much money and aggravation to get everything working right from what I've heard.
Maybe if you have a dyno guy who you trust that will guarantee good results it would be worth a try.
Hope to hear more positive news in the future.

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-14-2007, 08:47 PM
"Maybe if you have a dyno guy who you trust that will guarantee good results it would be worth a try."

I didn't think dyno-tuning was required (or even recommended)w/these systems? Lack of good tuners is why I'm considering one of these units, & IMO one reason why they're are becoming ever more popular. I think you're right, closed loop tuning is the future of EFI.

VicW.

arthureld
04-14-2007, 09:06 PM
"Maybe if you have a dyno guy who you trust that will guarantee good results it would be worth a try."

I didn't think dyno-tuning was required (or even recommended)w/these systems? Lack of good tuners is why I'm considering one of these units, & IMO one reason why they're are becoming ever more popular. I think you're right, closed loop tuning is the future of EFI.

VicW.

You would save a lot of money to take your bike to a DynoJet certified tuner. That's just my worthless opinion.
But as I said, I would love to hear positive results with a closed loop system and see dyno sheets to back them up.

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-14-2007, 09:13 PM
I've had my bike to 3 different tuners & it still isn't right. Dyno print-outs from the closed loop crowd are scarece 'cause they don't need no stinkin dyno. LOL!

VicW.

Wide
04-14-2007, 09:17 PM
Whats not working right on your bike that the tuners cant get right?


Post us a dyno sheet so we can see whats happening, the sheets dont lie :D

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-14-2007, 09:54 PM
Appreciate the interest in my EFI & I sure don't wanna sound abrupt, but I'm really more interested in staying w/the topic of the thread than diagnosing a dyno sheet...

VicW.

arthureld
04-14-2007, 10:24 PM
You got it bro. Please accept my sincerest appology. :lol:

Hopefully someone with closed loop experience will add to this thread.

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-14-2007, 10:44 PM
Wow Arthur, there sure no need to apologize for trying to help. Damn I feel like an arse now.

VicW.

Wide
04-14-2007, 10:47 PM
I can give a thumbs down to the Daytona Twin Tech.
It will not adjust fast enough off idle to mid throttle causing a bog condition. About 4 months ago I had this happen.
Seems some of the others are going through the same not enough processor cycles to get the job done deal.




Hope this helps :D

arthureld
04-14-2007, 11:02 PM
Wow Arthur, there sure no need to apologize for trying to help. Damn I feel like an arse now.

VicW.

No sweat bud. I'm just as interested in this topic as you.

OldSalt
04-15-2007, 01:42 AM
This is definitely interesting, because I have hear advertisments about closed loop systems, but Wide is the first review I have seen of the product.

I would like to get away from the need for a dyno machine, but it does not seem like the technology is there yet.

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-15-2007, 01:56 AM
There are HUGE discussions about closed loop (mostly from end users) on another board, but I don't know if I'm allowed to post a link here?

VicW.

Wide
04-15-2007, 02:17 AM
You can post a link sleep

I do things from a engineering/scientific way of thinking but love to see real world input, after all that all that really matters :D

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-15-2007, 04:06 AM
Cool Wide, here it is then:

EFI On VTF (http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=109)

LOTS of reading there for ppl interested in the subject...

Talk about being on the fence; I've been considering going to a closed loop system for a long while now. I've read ALL the pages about it I can find anywhere on the net, corresponded w/a couple ppl who have it, DL'ed & glossed over many of the set-up/installation files for each system, & still can't decide which unit I'm gonna get...if any.

VicW.

Wide
04-15-2007, 04:30 AM
Vic to be quite honest, a real good closed system will cost far in excess of what they are selling now, they are only in the early stages of these in the aftermarket and really dont work that well. Unless you will be going from sea level to 10,000 elevations on a regular basis and like to use regular then premium fuel the simple PCIII will do you just fine. Far as all out performance.

One thing I dont like is that a air cooled engine can give sensors false readings so in turn you only get what you put in. Now if you go water cooled a lot of these issues get better real fast as you can get the motor to 195 degrees feed it clean cool air then dial the fuel in with the closed loop system. Air cooled just change temp wize too much and are not stable enough in my opinion to run a closed system. Also would like to see a few more sensors giving input then the few they have now.

But what do I know :D

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-15-2007, 05:23 AM
From what I've read, most ppl report great (if not fantastic) results w/the systems currently available, but there are a few who have problems. Most of the trouble seems associated w/the DTT unit, but their TCFI II is much more reliant on a meticulously correct installation, so I'm not sure if it's the modules or imperfect set-up/installations that are causing the issues.

The closed loop systems use the same sensors that the stock ECM uses, plus wide band O2 sensors to control AFR data tables. Logically, shouldn't that be enough input to net the desired end result? I don't believe that the aftermarket has developed the Alpha N technology (as applied to HD engines) to it's full potential just yet tho.

Maybe that's why I'm still riding the fence...& still researching.

VicW.

junior
04-15-2007, 05:38 AM
you would think that a concept (speed/density control) that has been around quite a while and been "perfected" in the auto world wouldn't be such a big deal to adapt to a bike.

while the systems i used to work on back in the dark ages were able to "learn" changes in the system to a degree, changing an e-prom (chip) was still required for dramatic hard parts changes. i would think that this would hold true on bikes as well, therefore still requiring some external changes in addition to the ability of closed loop to "learn".

the only real challenge i could see might be that water cooled engines tend to remain relatively stable temperature wise- +/- 30 degrees or so once the system goes closed loop. air cooleds might have a more dramatic temperature swing in normal conditions +/- 60 degrees and that might make it more difficult for the ecm to adjust.

i dunno- i am no expert. but imho, a closed loop system would be better performance wise......

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-15-2007, 06:22 AM
I'm gonna show my ignorance, but I thought that Alpha N used TPS/RPM where speed/density control was more reliant on MAP?

VicW.

junior
04-15-2007, 06:27 AM
you sound well versed...

i again, am no expert. my assumption was that the early magnetti marelli units were alpha n (no MAP sensor) while the newer delphi units were speed/density (has MAP sensor). i am not familiar really with the aftermarket units....

j

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-15-2007, 06:41 AM
Well I'm sure no expert either, far from it. I understand that the Delphi EFI's are considered an improvement over the MM's, but I never knew that one was S/D & the other Alpha N. Thanks for that cool tidbit of info there jr!

VicW.

hjdistl
04-24-2007, 07:35 AM
I am by no means an expert, I am just a dumb rider who has the TMAT system. Best money I have spent.

I have read and heard that the DTT is harder to setup and get running but once you do it is a good product also.

I have a stock 88 with a SE/AC and Rinehart 2-1 and it runs better than PCIII, & SERT tuned bikes running aftermarket pipes & AC's.

There are others that are running some highly modified builds with the TMAT and like it much better than when they were using the PCIII & SERT. Just go to that other forum and you will see.

I know the above is going to get some people bent out of shape so please no PM's on how you are building a "high end" build and I do not understand what is going on. (Yes some members on this board have done that and it is not appreciated. I was in "the uniform" for 23 1/2 years fighting for your rights so please respect mine.)

Now that I am off my rant here is why I went with the TMAT.

Put the SE/AC and Rinehart 2-1 on my 06 Dyna. HD dealer did a flash on the ECM. Not happy with all the decel popping and lack of pull on the highway. Went back and asked them to re do it. Same thing. Went back for #3 (Only paid for the 1st one). With all 3 the problem moved from one RPM range to another. Put the TM on and different as night & day. Took it back to the dealer and had the Service Manager and their head mechanic drive it. They came back talked to each other and decided to give me a store credit for the download. that is how much better it ran.

We do not have only 1 really great tuner around here and as a result it takes forever 2 month minimum to get into him.

The economics of the TMAT is what really sold me. Take a stock bike like mine add AC & Pipes then pick you poison, PCIII/SERT then to the tuner. Change the came, to the tuner, doe head work, to the tuner, decide on different pipes, to the tuner, etc. As we all know "to the tuner"= $$$.

But then again I am just a dumb guy that know what his "butt dyno" knows and what others say about how my bike runs.

arthureld
04-24-2007, 11:32 AM
hehe. So, how much is this miracle? Toss it in and all yer troubles are gone forever.
Let's all get one!!

hjdistl
04-25-2007, 02:39 AM
But a SERT and go to a tuner twice and you have paid for the TMAT.

Again the issue is having access to a Great Tuner.

I will say it here like I have stated before in other places. Given a persons set of circumstances a PCIII, SERT, DTT or the TMAT may be the best thing for you. Just do your homework and select what you feel the most comfortable with. For me it is the TMAT given the circumstances.

To each his own.

End of subject.

OldSalt
04-25-2007, 05:45 AM
Excellent advice! I really enjoyed the insights provided in this thread. I had the SERT and could not find a tuner worth a damn that knew how to tune it. So I gave up on it and bought a PCIII a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps I should have gone with one of the closed loop EFIs.

Threads like these keep me logging in to HCG. Jazda)):

arthureld
04-25-2007, 06:04 AM
I'm sure I'll be running one in a few years too. I love technology.
They will be manditory on new bikes soon.

hjdistl
04-25-2007, 10:45 AM
They are good today but the way technology advances, in a couple of years I am sure what I have now will seem like one of the first color TV's vs a new HD TV.

When you make the move let us know.

Have a good safe one.

junior
04-25-2007, 08:29 PM
all good info....

but what is a tmat efi?

j

OldSalt
04-25-2007, 09:48 PM
all good info....

but what is a tmat efi?

j

Stands for = Thunder Max Auto Tune

Wide
04-25-2007, 09:49 PM
all good info....

but what is a tmat efi?

j


Thunder Max Auto Tune :nordic_eek: :nordic_licking:

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-29-2007, 12:32 AM
They are good today but the way technology advances, in a couple of years I am sure what I have now will seem like one of the first color TV's vs a new HD TV.

I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on a TMAT, but I know that as soon as I do... :( Oh but WTF, I think I'll just do the rest of you (that are on the fence about getting one) a favor & go ahead. Then Zippers is sure to immediately come out w/something 10X better. LOL!

VicW.

Sleeps_In_Trees
05-29-2007, 06:39 AM
Ok, I had to put off getting the closed loop EFI after all. My charging system took a crap, so a new stator & regulator took a big chunk out of the EFI fund. While I had the primary apart I swapped the gearing to 3.37:1, & the new comp sprocket & clutch basket took most of what was left. Gonna be awhile before I can swing the new EFI system now...but hey, I'm riding again & the new gearing ROCKS!

VicW.,

SuperSport
10-31-2007, 01:25 PM
Pardon my ignorance, guys, but what is a "closed loop" system and, I suppose, the alternative is an "open" system?

OldBikerGuy
10-31-2007, 08:53 PM
Pardon my ignorance, guys, but what is a "closed loop" system and, I suppose, the alternative is an "open" system?

You're excused. ^_^

Closed loop means an oxygen sensor is mounted in the exhaust to feed information back to the ECM so it can make adjustments. Most Harleys started using this system in '07.

Open loop means the O2 sensor is bypassed, or not there in the first place.

Sleeps_In_Trees
11-01-2007, 07:25 AM
Yup. There are some differences in the various closed loop systems available, but OldBikerGuy outlined the basic concept very well. BTW, I went ahead & got the TMAT & am very satisfied w/the results.

VicW.

SuperSport
11-02-2007, 08:17 AM
Yup. There are some differences in the various closed loop systems available, but OldBikerGuy outlined the basic concept very well. BTW, I went ahead & got the TMAT & am very satisfied w/the results. VicW.

What did you have before the TM/AT and what about it is satisfying to you? I compared the TM/AT with the SERT and PCIII/XP and could not justify the price differential for the TM/AT ($800 vs. $350). So I got the PCIII/XP. I didn't go with the SERT because I was told that only certified Harley techs can download new maps from H-D. I stuck the PCIII CD in my laptop and the first thing it did was connect to the website and update all the maps.

Sleeps_In_Trees
11-03-2007, 04:51 AM
I had a PCIII usb before & I really believe it's a very good device...in the right hands. But, since there are no really competent tuners around here I spent more $$ trying to get it properly dyno-"tuned" than the TMAT wound up costing me, and my bike still didn't run nearly as good as it should've. Each shops "tune" on the PCIII had issues: popping on decell, low speed driveability issues, overly rich idle (exhaust smoking rich in one case), less than optimal performance, bad gas mileage, etc...all were gone after the 1st couple hundred miles running the TMAT. I can honestly say that I'm VERY satisfied w/the unit, & it was the right move for me. I only wish I'd done it before blowing so much money w/the PCIII.

VicW.

rob71458
03-13-2008, 06:42 AM
Any other feedback on the TMAT, It sounds like the way to go , I have spent a ton of money on PC3 and then sert dyno tuning. I just did another cam swap as well as new heads, and I really don't want to be reemed again.

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-13-2008, 04:21 PM
Still very happy w/mine. I just swapped cams & heads too & won't need a dyno-tune as it's dialing in very very well. I sure wish I'd got the TMAT much earlier.

VicW.

rob71458
03-14-2008, 12:19 AM
groucho So I am assuming that initially you need to load a map that suits your build, and then if you make changes it will adjust itself. Is that right? Do you need an initial dyno tune too?

squirrel71477
03-14-2008, 08:03 AM
Rob with the Thundermax you are "recommended" to load a base map that is as close as possible to your current setup so that it does not have to auto tune as long to get it dialed in. The unit will only "learn" for 30 mins at a time, so if you go riding then shut it off, crank back up then ride for 30 mins more it will learn again. Thus after several sessions it will dial itself in just like your car. The real trick is to make sure that the o2 sensors are mounted in their correct distance range from the exhaust port. It is a great system and will save you a lot of money if you are going to be doing mods. Just ask Coolmaker if you have any questions, we installed the o2 sensors in the pipes and the TMAT system ourselves. He LOVES it!!! ;)

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-14-2008, 09:08 AM
What squirrel said, no dyno-tune needed.

VicW.

rob71458
03-14-2008, 07:05 PM
Thanks for the feedback, I own an 07 SERK with D and D's two into one, I am assuming the O2 sensors are in the right location. Now that I look closer, I can see that "Trees" has the same pipes. Who has the best prices on the TMAT? Do I just go directly to Zippers?

CoolMaker
03-14-2008, 07:39 PM
I am like everyone else, skeptical about the Thundermax at the start. Read allot about it and talked to some that had it. Bought the thing with the "AutoTune", installed the unit, installed a map that was close to my build. It was better than the PCIII, right off to bat. The more I ride the bike the better it runs. It has certainly worked on my bike and that is all that matters to me. Sure the price is high (about $675.00), but when you realize that no more dyno time, it actually becomes quite a bit cheaper. Any changes to the bike from here on, and no damn dyno........ BTW, the bike starts right up now, there is no delay, like with the PCIII. It is very throttle responsive as well. You have the ability to set your AFR at various throttle and rpm ranges so you can run one AFR at cruise, and another for when you are getting on it. Fuel mileage is great so far, much better than the across the board AFR that the PCIII does. You also can put your laptop on the bike, take it for a ride, monitor all functions. Then come home and adjust the map any way you want to. This product has a "Thumbs Up" from me.... ;)

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-15-2008, 07:03 PM
Rob, I'm running a D&D Fatcat exhaust too & the '02 sensor bungs are located perfectly. I got my TMAT from Brad at Cateye Customs.

http://www.catseyecustoms.com/contact_us.asp

I understand that M & M Cycles has a good price on it too.

https://www.mandmcycles.com/homepage.htm

Let us know how it goes...

VicW.

rob71458
03-15-2008, 08:59 PM
I will, I am trying not to go insane while I wait for my heads and cylinders to come back from Diamond heads. I can't wait to put this thing back together.

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-16-2008, 04:11 AM
"I can't wait to put this thing back together"

...I hear ya, nothing else quite like it is there? groucho

VicW.

arthureld
03-16-2008, 07:22 AM
I still haven't decided what I'll do with my 08 RK, but a big bore kit & cams are most likely in my future.
You guys have me thinking.
I'm going to try to get thru this summer with slipons and the stock ignition system.
But I'm missing the torque of my 05 95".
The gas mileage of this stock setup makes me happy for now.
You don't have to remind me that I won't be winning any races.

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-16-2008, 08:49 PM
Planning a new build is a big part of the fun isn't it Arthur? Does your RK have the FBW throttle? Keep us posted...

VicW.

arthureld
03-17-2008, 12:52 AM
Yea, I do enjoy a little customizing here and there.
Mine is fly by wire.
Does that effect performance?

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-17-2008, 04:31 AM
I don't know if it affects performance Arthur, but I do know that not all of the companys have developed compatable tuning devices for it yet. Zippers has pushed estimated release dates back on the FBW compatable ThunderMax a few times already...I think they're saying mid-summer right now. Not sure about others...

VicW.

arthureld
03-17-2008, 05:22 AM
Thanks for the tip SinT

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-18-2008, 04:01 AM
I don't think I helped much, but you're welcome Arthur.

VicW.

arthureld
03-18-2008, 06:35 AM
Well, it would have sucked if I decided to do the TMAT only to find out it wouldn't work. Hopefully they'll have it ready if I decide to go that way someday.
I am kind of surprised you guys got it working because I remember Speedman went back to the PCIII after trying a closed loop system.

CoolMaker
03-18-2008, 06:30 PM
Speedman was using the Daytona Twin Tech... ;)

arthureld
03-18-2008, 08:34 PM
How's the gas mileage with the system you guys are running?

CoolMaker
03-18-2008, 08:51 PM
How's the gas mileage with the system you guys are running?

95", 510 S&S cams, 50 SE throttle body, Rinehart true duals, Stage 1 CNC head porting from NRHS, SE roller rockers, Fueling race oil pump.

I am getting 36-38 with a generic map set at 13 AFR, across the board. I ride a little hard though, and that tank was allot of in town driving. Am in the process of setting the AFR to about 14 at cruise speeds. 13 through the rest of the map, other people with similar setups are getting approx 44-47 after tuning the map.

BTW, I was only getting 25-29 with a properly tuned PCIII.......

Sleeps_In_Trees
03-19-2008, 04:02 AM
Running unmodified maps will result in a great running bike, but lower fuel economy. However it's VERY easy to set up different AFR's, even customizing a map to your riding style is a pc of cake & only takes minutes. I got 47 mpg on a trip last year, 2 up & loaded down, running 70-80 mph on the super slab...I generally got low 40's w/mixed riding (hwy, in town, twisting the throttle a bit, etc) on that 95" build. I have a new map dialing in after my winter engine upgrades (new cams & heads) & the TMAT is doing a great job w/this'n too...

I've been very satisfied w/the ThunderMax Autotune & can't recommend it highly enough.

VicW.



VicW.

arthureld
03-19-2008, 05:02 AM
That's great news guys. This is getting exciting.
I had a hell of a time trying to adjust the PCIII myself, but the TMAT sounds easier.

Sleeps_In_Trees
04-13-2008, 09:05 PM
UPDATE: Bike ran good, plugs looked great, & cruise MPG was mid-40's, but I had a dyno pull done & I can't seem to dial out a huge rich/lean spike that is resulting in an ugly early TQ dip w/the TMAT. I believe the spikes are inherent in the structure of the TMAT fuel tables & is not correctable. I prolly would've been happy if I hadn't seen the dyno sheet, but now that I know there's more in there I want it.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o297/arrowsmit/STDRUN_18.jpg


VicW.

rob71458
05-01-2008, 06:02 AM
Have you got the bugs work out of your TMAT?

Sleeps_In_Trees
05-06-2008, 01:13 AM
Rob, the TMAT runs great. Bike runs smooth w/good power & nice gas mileage, I just couldn't get it dialed in to produce optimum numbers on the dyno. Since I owe a couple ppl a good dyno sheet (long story) I'm currently back to running the stock ECM w/PCIII USB, & waiting to get a dyno tune appt...

VicW..

Sleeps_In_Trees
05-14-2008, 05:41 AM
UPDATE:

Well, it's been amazingly difficult to get a dyno-tune scheduled w/my shop of choice (DJ250i w/TL/WinPep 7), still working on it. But in the meantime I found a great deal on a (very) slightly used TSII/WEGOIIID & have been tuning w/it w/very good results. The TSII is a very useful diagnostics tool, & tuning w/the WEGO has been a lotta fun. The bike is running great, & if I didn't owe John Andrews a dyno sheet I'm sure I'd forego the dyno-tune.

...but I don't like loose ends.

VicW.

ToBeFrank
05-18-2008, 01:02 AM
I noticed the same performance issues as Vic (and caught a lot of h*** over on VTF for pointing them out). Same as Vic I switched back to the stock ECM and tuned it with a Twin Scan, except I used a SERT rather than the PCIII. Also as Vic stated, if I hadn't done a dyno run and then started looking at the logged data from the tmax, I never would have noticed. If you want to get most of the way there, the tmax will work, but if you really want the max from your bike/build, I recommend the stock ECM.